[Kabar-indonesia] 2 of 2: Transcript: Four Corners in Dili: "Stoking the Fires"

[Joyo at aol.com]

-2 of 2-

"Stoking the Fires" continues...

LIZ JACKSON: The following day, a long convoy of
trucks heads down from the hills and from the
far-western border towns into the capital of Dili.
They were stopped at the outskirts for 30 minutes or
so, but after a few calls on the mobile phone Major
Tara accepts the deal put to him by Jose Ramos Horta.
The demonstrators can come into the capital, they can
deliver their demands to President Xanana Gusmao
himself and then leave but keep it under control.
There's a little bit of rock-throwing but that's about
it as the convoy slowly wends its way to the
President's office. About 2,000 people have come to
demand that Prime Minister Alkatiri stand down. 

LIZ JACKSON: Do you think you've lost the support of
the people? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: This country is not
a country of 2,000 people. This country - a country of
one million people. That's why 2,000... 2,000 is your
number. My number is even much less than 2,000. I have
put people counting one-by-one and it's...not more
than 1,000 people. 

LIZ JACKSON: You've had people counting one-by-one? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. 

LIZ JACKSON: And you put it at 1,000? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: The fact
there is 2,000 or 1,000 - it's small for the scale of
Dili and East Timor but it is true - the depth of
dissatisfaction and criticism of the government as a
whole and in particular the Prime Minister is much
more widespread than the number of people
demonstrating the other day - 1,000 or 2,000. It is
widespread sentiment. 

LIZ JACKSON: President Gusmao thanks the crowd for
coming and reminding him of his responsibilities but
makes no mention of their central demand that Alkatiri
should stand down. He appeals for calm and promises
he'll address the many crises that face the country. 

XANANA GUSMAO: I promise. After this crisis, people
will no longer continue to suffer. 

LIZ JACKSON: Does there come a point where
unpopularity alone is a good enough reason for a Prime
Minister to stand down? 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: Well, let
me tell you one thing. No-one has asked me,
personally, to step down. If I were to receive just 10
per cent of the criticisms that the Prime Minister has
received - all kinds of invitations to step down -
well, I would have stepped down long ago. 

LIZ JACKSON: The following night we get a message. The
group of men who claim they were given weapons on the
orders of Alkatiri are ready to meet us. The meeting
place is Liquica - an hour's drive west of Dili. Their
leader, Commander Rai Los, is there when we arrive but
before we talk we must wait for the rest of the group.


MAN: He has to wait for the coming of other members so
that we can report in full with the other members. 

LIZ JACKSON: I understand. Thank you very much. 

LIZ JACKSON: We'll wait till the other people arrive.
They're travelling on bad roads from various locations
- they could be some time. While we wait, we're given
a document that purports to be a memo written to the
then Interior Minister Rogerio Lobato - dated 20 May
2006. It's headed 'Fretilin Secret Security Team' and
attached is a list of 30 names whom we're told are all
the members of the team. There's a further list of the
serial numbers of 16 weapons next to the names of the
men who were given them. The memo says that Commander
Rai Los was asked by Minister Lobato six weeks ago to
recruit and arm a team of former resistance fighters
because "the situation in the country has been
threatened by an opposition party." It reports a
claimed meeting on 8 May where Mari Alkatiri speaks
with Commander Rai Los about how to settle the issues
that have arisen between east and west. But nothing
more specific than that. 90 minutes later we drive to
a new location. The team is assembled and they've
brought their guns. Commander Rai Los has put on a
uniform as well. But he and his men are not soldiers -
they're civilians. 

LIZ JACKSON: Can we come inside and talk? 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO, 'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM: OK. 

LIZ JACKSON: Once inside, Commander Rai Los made a
series of allegations about the purpose of this team -
some far more serious and sinister than in the
document we'd read. He spoke about a 30-minute meeting
with Mari Alkatiri. 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO,'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (TRANSLATION): In this meeting he
instructed Comrade Rogerio to distribute the weapons
to the Fretilin Secret Security Team. 

LIZ JACKSON: He alleged he was told the team's secret
mission over the next 12 months was as follows... 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO,'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (TRANSLATION): Firstly, to eliminate
petitioners - totally destroy petitioners. Secondly,
to terminate opposition leaders. Thirdly, to
exterminate the military leaders like Major Alfredo,
Major Tara, Major Tilman and their men who have taken
weapons into the mountains. And finally to eliminate
any Fretilin members who oppose the the policy of Mari
and of Fretilin. 

LIZ JACKSON: Rai Los says his team had used their
weapons in a gun battle with the regular army - in the
so-called Tibar incident. This is footage of his men
in action. He says four people were killed, and this
is why he decided to abandon his loyalty to Mari
Alkatiri. 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO,'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (TRANSLATION): Then I realised maybe I
should be on the side of the petitioners against the
FDTL. At that point, I realised Mari wanted to divide
the people and keep control of the government. 

LIZ JACKSON: Rai Los makes what seems an unlikely
claim. But though he's now telling the rest of the
world, he has not informed President Gusmao. 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO,'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (TRANSLATION): We haven't informed the
president. Mari ordered that. 

LIZ JACKSON: When we asked how he could prove any of
this, Rai Los put on an unexpected show. He lined up
his men with their weapons - safety catches off - and
then dialled what he said was former minister Lobato's
mobile phone. Rai Los had told him the petitioners
were around and now he gives his men the signal. 

GUNFIRE 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO, 'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (ON PHONE): There's a lot of shooting.
They just hit one of our men. One of our soldiers.
They're taking cover. 

MAN ON PHONE: How many are there? 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO, 'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (ON PHONE): There are too many brother. 

MAN ON PHONE: OK, take cover and defend yourselves. 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO, 'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (ON PHONE): OK, but brother, you need to
contact comrade Mari. 

MAN ON PHONE: I've contacted him already. You have to
fire back and defend yourselves. 

COMMANDER VINCENTE DA CONCEICAO, 'RAI LOS', FRETILIN
SECURITY TEAM (ON PHONE): OK, that's good. 

LIZ JACKSON: We checked the mobile number the
following day, and Rogerio Lobato did indeed answer
the phone. Rai Los then produced more evidence. He'd
saved the former minister's text messages as well. He
showed us this one sent from Lobato's mobile phone,
dated June 4th. That's two days before the
anti-Alkatiri rally was headed for Dili. "To Rai Los.
Opposition will come from Emera intending to
demonstrate in Dili to put down the government. Why
not stop them at the coffee plantation in Rai Laku and
burn all 26 trucks?" Rai Los had no proof of his
allegations against the Prime Minister. Just one text
message from Alkatiri's mobile, date - June 1. All it
said was, "Where are you going?" 

LIZ JACKSON: Are you aware of a group called the
Fretilin Secret Security Team? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: This is wrong, there
is no Fretilin Secret Security for sure. Are you aware
of that title? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yes, one of the
rumours, yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: One of the rumours? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. 

LIZ JACKSON: We met a group of 30 armed men last night
who said they were the Fretilin Secret Security Team. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah? 

LIZ JACKSON: And they also said they were recruited
and armed by your former interior minister, Rogerio
Lobato, under your orders. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, no, no,
they...you, you will even really identify others. 30,
or 50, or 60, and tried to...to, the groups who tried
to accuse, ah, the former minister or also current
ministers or myself, but this doesn't mean that there
is not a manipulation of others. I do believe that
there is no civil... not regular armed peoples that
were armed by the government. 

LIZ JACKSON: The Prime Minster agreed that he did have
a meeting with Commander Rai Los - Rai Los is a fellow
member of the Fretilin Party - but Alkatiri says all
the allegations that Rai Los makes are false. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: People are now
looking to really, to demonise my image. This is the
only thing I can say. 

LIZ JACKSON: Where do you imagine they got their guns
from? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Please, it's better
to ask them. 

LIZ JACKSON: Well, I did ask them... 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: I, I never...I
never... 

LIZ JACKSON: ..and they said it was from you. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: I never had one guns
in my hands. I am not police, I am not armed force - I
am Prime Minister. 

LIZ JACKSON: The following day, we called at Rogerio
Lobato's house. 

LIZ JACKSON: Good morning. 

MAN: Good morning. 

LIZ JACKSON: My name is Liz Jackson, from Australian
television 

MAN: You want to Mr... 

LIZ JACKSON: Yeah, Mr Rogerio Lobato. 

MAN: Mr to talk for TV come? 

LIZ JACKSON: Yes, please. 

MAN: OK, wait. 

LIZ JACKSON: Thank you. 

LIZ JACKSON: We wanted to ask the former minister some
questions, and he was no longer answering his mobile
phone. 

MAN: Sorry, Mr Rogerio, call to phone for - he come?
No. Mr Rogerio, no. 

LIZ JACKSON: He's not here, or he doesn't want to
speak to us? 

MAN: No, no. He not, no maybe sleeping. 

LIZ JACKSON: He's sleeping? 

MAN: Yeah. 

 LIZ JACKSON: Oh, we're, we're happy to wait, we'll
just wait then. 

MAN: No, no, I talk Mr Rogerio, Mr Rogerio no talk. 

LIZ JACKSON: What, you spoke with him? 

MAN: Yeah. 

LIZ JACKSON: So, he's not asleep? 

LIZ JACKSON: We're not getting anywhere, so decide
instead to call the head of the Board of Police,
Antonio de Cruz. According to the document we got from
Rai Los, he was actually the person who gave him the
guns, at 10pm at night in a cemetery at Lauhata. We
track him down in the border town of Maliana. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: This is Antonio da Cruz speaking. 

LIZ JACKSON: This is Antonio da Cruz speaking? Good
morning, sir. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Good morning, madam! 

LIZ JACKSON: Good morning. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: How are you? 

LIZ JACKSON: I am very good. My name is Liz Jackson
from ABC TV. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Oh, ABC TV , yes! I am the National
Commander of the Border Patrol Unit. 

LIZ JACKSON: Good to speak with you, sir. Commander
Rai Los says that on the 8th of May, you were at the
Lauhata cemetery, near Liquica, and that you gave him
10 AK weapons, and 6,000 rounds of ammunition. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Ah, yes, ah, you, you already
confirmed this information from who? 

LIZ JACKSON: Commander Rai Los. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: And it's true? 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Yes, it's true. 

LIZ JACKSON: It's true. 

LIZ JACKSON: Who told you to give those guns and
ammunition to Commander Rai Los? 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: This is from, from, our... I'm
receiving an order from the our Interior Minister. 

LIZ JACKSON: Rogerio Lobato, the Interior Minister,
told you to give, told you to give Commander Rai Los
the guns and the ammunition, yes? 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: Do you know for what purpose? 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: I don't know, I don't know, I don't
know exactly what, what kind is, he is thinking about
that, but I'm the one of the member of the police in
Timor-Leste, and I'm the responsibility for the Border
Patrol Unit and refer the order to the question our
long guns to the ...this matter directly to the our
minister and our minister say that he has to give this
for the Commander Rai Los and I am just doing... 

LIZ JACKSON: Just following orders? 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: Do you know if the Prime Minister Mari
Alkatiri gave those orders to the Interior Minster, do
you know if Mari Alkatiri knew that you were giving
weapons to Commander Rai Los. 

ANTONIO DA CRUZ: Ah, I'm not sure and I'm never
listened together with the our Prime Minister, 'cause
I'm the...just member for the national police. 

LIZ JACKSON: Rogerio Lobato's security guard has
appeared, so it's time to wind up. But Antonio da Cruz
tells us he'll fax us the dispatch records he prepared
that list the serial numbers of all the weapons, and
to whom they were sent. Two pages arrive. The first
page shows 15 HK33 weapons dispatched to His
Excellency, the Minister of the Interior on the 8th of
May, 2006. The second, a further eight guns dispatched
to the minister on the 21st of May. We check the
serial numbers of this list of weapons against the
serial numbers we got from Rai Los. 15 out of the 16
of Rai Los's guns are listed here. The two we filmed
in Liquica were in the first dispatch. We put this to
Jose Ramos Horta. 

LIZ JACKSON: What does it suggest to you that the head
of the border police is asked to give weapons to the
Minster of the Interior which end up in an armed
civilian group? 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: Well,
obviously, that is an... a very grave, ah, breach, a
very grave offence. It would be understandable if the
Interior Minister order the weapons away from a
sensitive area to be locked away. But when the weapons
are returned to him and, ah, re-assign them to, ah,
civilians, that is an absolutely grave matter. I'm not
saying that this is a fact but if this is what
happened, is a very grave matter. 

LIZ JACKSON: Arming civilians is a serious offence,
yes? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Of course. I'm aware
myself. 

LIZ JACKSON: A sacking offence? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Mmm. Arming a
civilian is against the whole policy of this
government. 

LIZ JACKSON: And it would be a sacking offence? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. 

LIZ JACKSON: The Prime Minister has already told us
that he believes no civilians were armed by his
government but just as we're leaving, we get
information that suggests this isn't true. We've
driven up into the hills behind Dili to Police
Commissioner Paulo Martins' house. After the attacks
on police, it was no longer safe for him in Dili, and
here he has armed protection. We want to show the
Commissioner a handwritten letter that we believe he
wrote to the Prime Minister Mari Alkatiri, dated 19
May. 

LIZ JACKSON: Sir, we have come to see you because we
want to be absolutely sure that this is the letter...
you wrote to the Prime Minister. 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: The letter informs the Prime Minister of
an urgent matter, that on 8 May, the Commissioner of
Police for Suai saw a person by the name of Arakat,
and eight of his colleagues, with HK33 weapons that
belonged to the border police. Arakat is a senior
member of Commander Rai Los' group. 

LIZ JACKSON: So in your letter to the Prime Minister,
you told him that the weapons had gone to a member of
Commander Rai Los' group? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: I told
this letter is a...a members of the name Arakat. 

LIZ JACKSON: Arakat? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Arakat. 

LIZ JACKSON: A member of Commander Rai Los' group? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Yeah. 

LIZ JACKSON: The letter goes on to state that Arakat's
weapons were, "the 17 weapons that had been handed
over to the Minister of the Interior". It concludes,
"If this was done with the knowledge of Your
Excellency, I will not do anything to the contrary.
But the population is panicking, and if these measures
continue, there will not be a way to put an end to the
current problems." Paulo Martins did not give the
letter directly to the Prime Minister in person. 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: No, I
give to through the secretary of the Prime Minister,
Dr Guterres. 

LIZ JACKSON: And what did you say to Dr Guterres about
this letter? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: I tell
him that the letter is very top secret and he will
have to deliver the letter when the Prime Minister
stay alone. 

LIZ JACKSON: When he's by himself? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Yes, yes.


LIZ JACKSON: Three days later, the Commissioner of
Police asked to see Mari Alkatiri. 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Ah, on 21
May, in the morning, I called the Prime Minister that
I have a meeting with the Minister of Interior. And
after that meeting, I will, um... if I have
possibility to have a meeting with the Prime Minister.
But the Prime Minister tell me that, "You can come to
see me, but don't speak about the weapon." 

LIZ JACKSON: He directly asked you not to talk to him
about these weapons that you'd drawn his attention to?


PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: So as far as you know, nothing was ever
done after you sent the letter? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: The Prime Minister definitely knew? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: If the Prime Minister had just an
awareness that a group of people were being armed,
Fretilin group of people were being armed, to ensure
security, is that serious? 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: Of course,
that alone is serious. You know, we have enough police
in this country. Now why having, you know, thousands
of police that have more weapons than the army and we
still need to arm civilians? And, this is just
mind-boggling. I just don't understand why, ah... if
these were the fact, why he would condone it why,
being who he is - Prime Minister but a very
legal-minded person - he would not stop it right away.


LIZ JACKSON: We went back to the Prime Minister,
seeking his response to these further allegations, but
we've had no reply. We can only assume he'll give the
same response as before, that all the allegations
about him are just slurs by his political rivals both
inside and outside the Cabinet room. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: The situation here
in this country now is a very complex one...as you
know. 

LIZ JACKSON: And will you be investigating your former
interior minister? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: They...I'm open
for... I told already today the international
community, the United Nations to come and to
investigate...everything. 

LIZ JACKSON: If it were true, would you stand down? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: This is always your
target this, how...stand down or step down or not.
I've made it clear that I will never step down. 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: Even if I
feel in my conscience that I am innocent, even if
or... in my conscience as well, you know, these
allegations are not all 100 per cent true but are 10
per cent true, I would have stepped down, you know? My
own honour, my own dignity, my own pride would not,
keep me, you know, in office. 

LIZ JACKSON: While the political games and the power
plays continue, those with no power have just modest
demands. Beatrice de Jesus lost her husband Santiago
in the slaughter of the unarmed police on the road to
the UN compound. She wants to know who was
responsible. Who ordered the troops, or were they
civilians, to open fire? She's hoping for justice, but
just a sign that someone cared would help. 

BEATRICE DO REGO DE JESUS: (TRANSLATION): No-one has
come to see us about his death. Since his death,
no-one from his force came to see us. Not even his
commanders have come. We called to ask them if we can
have his body back, but we've been told that we cannot
remove his body until further notice. 

-END/2 of 2-

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