[Kabar-indonesia] 1 of 2: Transcript: Four Corners in Dili: "Stoking the Fires" [+Lobato warrant]

[Joyo at aol.com]

-1 of 2-

[transcript follows brief article below]

Breaking News: 

Agence France-Presse
June 20, 2006
 
Arrest warrant for Timor minister

EAST Timor's independent prosecutor-general has issued
an arrest warrant for former interior minister Rogerio
Lobato over accusations that he armed civilians as the
country descended into chaos last month, a UN official
said today.

"Prosecutor-general Longuinhos Monteiro has issued an
arrest warrant for ex-interior minister Lobato for
weapons distribution," the UN official said.

An official statement on the warrant was being
prepared, he said. 

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Australian Broadcasting Corporation 
FOUR CORNERS - Investigative TV journalism at its best
Broadcast June 19, 2006 
-Transcript-

"Stoking the Fires"

Reporter: Liz Jackson

LIZ JACKSON: As international forces assist East Timor
emerge from violence and mayhem, the political push is
now on to force the country's Prime Minister, Dr Mari
Alkatiri, to stand down. Alkatiri is a terrorist, a
communist, a Muslim, say the men at this rally up in
the hills to Foreign Minister Ramos Horta. The rumours
about Dr Alkatiri are many and wild. But evidence is
thin on the ground. It's here we're told, for the
first time, that Alkatiri ordered his Minister for the
Interior to hand over weapons to a secret civilian
security team. 

MAJOR TARA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): These weapons were
given by Rogerio Lobato but were authorised by Mari to
give to the members of Fretilin Congress. 

LIZ JACKSON: This is what you believe? 

MAJOR TARA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): This happened. It
happened many times over. 

LIZ JACKSON: Tonight East Timor's Commissioner of
Police reveals to Four Corners documentary evidence
that the Prime Minister Mari Alkatiri knew one of his
ministers was arming civilians. He knows how damaging
this could be. 

LIZ JACKSON: Are you fearful of the consequences? 

PAULO MARTINS, COMMISSIONER OF POLICE, PNTL:
Consequences, yeah. Maybe they have to make some
trouble with me. 

LIZ JACKSON: While life is returning to the streets of
Dili, thousands of refugees are still too scared to
return to their homes. They don't trust that it's over
yet. The threats, the rivalries, the political
intrigues that enflamed the violence, all remain
unresolved. Tonight on Four Corners we seek to uncover
how it could come to this. It's around 8am at police
headquarters in the East Timorese capital of Dili.
Every morning now, the police who have not abandoned
their jobs put on their uniforms and go through the
motions of pretending they still have authority and a
job they can do. The reality is they're not allowed
out on the streets for fear of provoking further
violence and mayhem. But it's important for morale to
keep up the parades. Inspector Afonso de Jesus is
today the senior officer of the PNTL, as the Timorese
Police Force is known. It's just over three weeks
since seven of his colleagues were shot dead in cold
blood after a gun battle with the country's army - the
FDTL. 

LIZ JACKSON: Why was the army opening fire on the
police? 

INSPECTOR AFONSO DE JESUS, PNTL: I don't know the
reason why they are firing on us. 

LIZ JACKSON: The bloodstains are still on the
stairwell where police were hit by the incoming fire.
It's not the first time that rivalry between the
police and the military has erupted into violence. The
army has increasingly resented the aid money, weapons
and resources poured into establishing a police force
when it was members of the army who fought for Timor's
independence. On the morning when the gun battle was
raging, Inspector Afonso got a call from the Prime
Minister Mari Alkatiri. 

INSPECTOR AFONSO DE JESUS, PNTL: He called me by phone
and said, "It's OK. Afonso, you should stop the
firing". But I responded to the Prime Minister, "OK,
we are not firing but the FDTL still keep attacking us
in this building." After that... 

LIZ JACKSON: So the Prime Minister rang you and said,
"Could the police stop firing?" 

INSPECTOR AFONSO DE JESUS, PNTL: Stop the firing. And
they think that we are the ones who are firing. But as
I said, we are not firing. 

LIZ JACKSON: The gun battle was being observed with
mounting alarm by United Nations police and military
advisors. At around 11am two of them made a fateful
plea to their boss, head of the UN mission, Sukehiro
Hasegawa. 

SUKEHIRO HASEGAWA, UN SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE,
TIMOR-LESTE: They came to me and they felt very
strongly that they have the ability to stop the
firing. Both sides, they know FDTL officers and also
PNTL officers. 

LIZ JACKSON: The UN officials talked with the head of
the military and with senior police. Assurances were
given, a deal was made - if the police surrendered
their weapons, the army would allow the unarmed
officers safe passage out of their compound under UN
escort. Many of the police were reluctant. It was
inspector Afonso's job to persuade them. You
personally asked three police officers to give up
their weapons? 

INSPECTOR AFONSO DE JESUS, PNTL: Yeah, weapons. All
our weapons we surrendered to Mr Fernando Reis and
also the other friends from the UNPOL. 

LIZ JACKSON: Within minutes of emerging, the police
officers were gunned down. This was the aftermath.
Four people were shot dead on the road. Three died
later in the UN compound. 25 were wounded. Witnesses
say two or three men in army uniforms had been waiting
for them down at the corner of the road. No-one is
officially saying who gave the order to shoot but this
shocking event revealed to the world how close East
Timor was to a bloody collapse into a failed state. 

SUKEHIRO HASEGAWA, UN SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE,
TIMOR-LESTE: They shot at Timorese police officers and
they carefully avoided the UN police officers. It was
incredible that UN police officers were not shot to
death. 

LIZ JACKSON: So it was not random? 

SUKEHIRO HASEGAWA, UN SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE,
TIMOR-LESTE: No. It was very well... In fact, perhaps
a planned attack. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: I was very clear to
Mr Hasegawa that as a government we are open for
investigation, to investigate all the situations,
including this one. 

LIZ JACKSON: You will investigate all the situations
that have occurred? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Yes. 

LIZ JACKSON: Prime Minister Alkatiri arrives at the
National Parliament building under the protection of
Australian soldiers. Even with protection he can no
longer mix with the people he governs. He was never a
popular figure before and now given the chaos in the
country, his leadership is under siege. Prime Minister
Alkatiri, I'm from Four Corners. Alkatiri spent the 25
years of the independence struggle in exile, mostly in
Marxist Mozambique. He returned at the end of 1999. 

LIZ JACKSON: People say of the Prime Minister that he
has an arrogant and aloof style and is a Marxist. Are
they right? 

DR JOSE TEIXEIRA, DEPUTY MINISTER FOR NATURAL
RESOURCES, MINERALS AND ENERGY POLICY: I think he's
far from being a Marxist. I work closely with him. If
you look at the policies that the government has
adopted in terms of developing the private sector,
driven, policies driven largely also by the Prime
Minister. So I think that that accusation, that he's a
Marxist, falls very, very foul. 

LIZ JACKSON: Jose Teixeira is the PM's spokesman. A
former Brisbane lawyer, he left East Timor when he was
11, returning in 2002. Work today is organising
last-minute details for a visit from Foreign Minister
Alexander Downer. Teixeira believes that Dr Alkatiri's
tough stance in the negotiations over oil and gas
rights in the Timor Gap won him no friends in
Canberra. Do you feel that there's been pressure from
the Australian Government in terms of who should run
this country? 

DR JOSE TEIXEIRA, DEPUTY MINISTER FOR NATURAL
RESOURCES, MINERALS AND ENERGY POLICY: Look, I'm sure
that this Prime Minister and this government are not
the favourites of people in Canberra, and I don't just
mean the political personalities in Canberra, but
others that form part of the Canberra establishment. 

LIZ JACKSON: Alexander Downer arrives half an hour
late. He and his entourage had gone to see one of the
Prime Minister's political rivals, Foreign Minister
Jose Ramos Horta, first. So Dr Alkatiri keeps them
waiting now. 

ALEXANDER DOWNER: Oh, hello, Prime Minister. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Foreign Minister. 

LIZ JACKSON: Alkatiri was not as keen as Ramos Horta
to seek international military assistance, but he
signed on the dotted line. He says he's getting no
foreign pressure to resign before elections scheduled
in six to nine months time. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: No, up to now, I
haven't got any pressure from any governments. Of
course, some people have been... delivered some
statements that it will be better for the solution of
the conflict if the Prime Minister stepped down, but I
think that this is, is not a... It's unfair, but I
don't really consider it as a pressure. 

LIZ JACKSON: Who are you singling out, then? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: You know very well
who I am singling out. 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: The
problem is, obviously, can the country afford the next
six months, nine months of this continued pressure on
the Prime Minister to resign? Can we afford this
increasing loss of credibility of the government and
poor image of the country? Or should the Prime
Minister say, "Well, I step aside in the interests of
my own party. It seems that I am liability to my own
party, if not to the country." 

LIZ JACKSON: The pressure began two months ago. There
was a 5-day demonstration by 600 sacked army officers
- known as the petitioners - and their supporters.
They claim they suffer discrimination because unlike
most of the senior army officers, they came from the
west of the country, near the Indonesian border. They
say they're portrayed as collaborators with Indonesia,
while the easterners take all the credit for the
independence struggle. By the middle of the day,
hooligans had swelled the crowd and it turned ugly.
Rocks were thrown, cars were torched, the regular
police lost control, and the riot police in black
opened fire. By late in the day, the mayhem had
spread. The Prime Minister called in the army. By
nightfall, 60 people had been shot. Five people were
dead. 

LIZ JACKSON: Did you authorise those troops to fire on
the demonstration? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: No. One thing is to
call the troops to help police to control the
situation. The other thing is to fire against the
demonstration. I made it clear, the instructions were
clear, to control, to get them away and not to
follow...to go after them. 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: The
Defence Force must not be brought to, uh... prevent or
to stop civil unrest, because they are not trained for
that. And you never know for sure the consequences
when they enter in the city. And without consulting
the head of state - particularly someone like Xanana
Gusmao, who has an exceptionally good political
instinct, that is, yes, a grave error of judgement. 

LIZ JACKSON: Over the following the days, warring
factions of the security forces turned on each other.
Gangs of hooligans roamed the streets, 45 homes were
burnt to the ground. People were shot and stabbed,
some were burnt alive. More than 14,000 people fled
their homes in terror and camped in the grounds of
churches, embassies and out near the airport. 70 per
cent of police deserted their posts and a rebel army
faction took their cars and their guns to the hills in
solidarity with the petitioners. Their leader, Major
Alfredo Reinado, remains there still, demanding that
Alkatiri resigns. 

MAJOR ALFREDO REINADO, MILITARY POLICE, F-FDTL: I
think he has to step back from the position and face
their investigation, and if they prove he did do
anything wrong with his leadership, he will go and
face the court then. 

LIZ JACKSON: Two weeks ago, Foreign Minister Ramos
Horta arrives at the presidential office to be sworn
in as the new Minister for Defence. Following the
violence, the Interior Minister and the Minister for
Defence have both been pressured to stand down. Is
that fair? 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS:
Yes, that's absolutely fair, because ministers in
other countries stand down for minor offences, so that
as a first step, that is fair. 

LIZ JACKSON: On that basis, should the Prime Minister,
as the head of the government, resign for precisely
the same reasons? 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I
knew if I had answered this question, your next
question would be precisely...that one. So, I prefer
to abstain from responding to this question. 

LIZ JACKSON: Foreign ambassadors and the United
Nations crowd into a small backroom to witness the
swearing in. Everyone is waiting for the President
Xanana Gusmao to arrive, including, at the back, Prime
Minister Mari Alkatiri. Three days before, the
President publicly announced that he was assuming
principle responsibility for security issues. 

LIZ JACKSON: Has the actions of the President
undermined any authority that the Prime Minister has
in terms of his capacity to govern this country? 

DR JOSE TEIXEIRA, DEPUTY MINISTER FOR NATURAL
RESOURCES, MINERALS AND ENERGY POLICY: I'm not going
to comment on that. 

LIZ JACKSON: No comment? 

DR JOSE TEIXEIRA, DEPUTY MINISTER FOR NATURAL
RESOURCES, MINERALS ANDENERGY POLICY: No comment, no. 

LIZ JACKSON: Has the President placed any pressure on
you to resign? 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: Who? 

LIZ JACKSON: The President. 

DR MARI ALKATIRI, PRIME MINISTER: No, never. The
President is one of the stronger defender of the
Constitution here in this country. 

LIZ JACKSON: President Xanana Gusmao arrives. While
publicly maintaining a semblance that they're working
together, it's widely known that Xanana Gusmao has
sought legal advice about whether under Timor's
constitution he has the power to sack Alkatiri. The
short answer is no - not without a parliamentary vote
of no confidence. And in the parliament, Alkatiri's
Fretilin Party has the numbers. The only provision
that would force the Prime Minister to stand aside is
if he were charged with a serious criminal offence.
The rift between the Prime Minister and the President
goes back 20 years, when Gusmao left the Fretilin
Party to adopt a more centrist, more inclusive, less
hardline stance. 

XANANA GUSMAO IN PARLIAMENT: Dear friends, ladies and
gentlemen, it was not supposed to be so solemn
ceremony. But we must recognise that, because of the
situation, it is a special one. 

LIZ JACKSON: Would you describe the relationship
between the President and the Prime Minister as the
President being very supportive of the Prime Minister?


DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FORFOREIGN AFFAIRS:
Well, I would not say that the President is very
supportive of the Prime Minister. I would say that the
President is very mindful of his responsibility,
particularly in times of crisis, but also in normal
times, to ensure that the institutions of the state,
the democratic institutions of the state, do function
normally. 

LIZ JACKSON: Two days later, we hear that new defence
minister, Jose Ramos Horta, has headed south-west of
Dili to meet with rebel soldiers and their supporters,
who've rallied in the township of Gleno. As we arrive,
Ramos Horta is telling the rally that he's asked for
an international inquiry into who's behind the
violence and killings between the warring security
factions. 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS:
Regarding the investigation, it will go ahead as
planned, but I can't comment any further because it
would be disrespectful to the international
commission. 

LIZ JACKSON: The people here have brought their
banners and trucks because they're planning to
demonstrate in Dili tomorrow, calling on the Prime
Minister to resign. Ramos Horta tells them this is
their democratic right. 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I
said, "It is your right to demonstrate. And...I do not
necessarily...am going to say you should not or should
not, that's not my responsibility." 

LIZ JACKSON: Would you describe those people in Gleno
as your supporters? 

DR JOSE RAMOS HORTA, MINISTER FOR DEFENCE: Well, it
seemed like, it seemed like, as many of them said, I
should be the Prime Minister... ah, yes, in many
places. To drive, just now, I came from Maliana.
Everywhere I have been to - Baucau, everywhere - and I
have had tremendous sympathy, support, warmth from the
people by the thousands, by the hundreds. And I feel
overwhelmed, maybe because they are desperately
looking for leadership, looking for people they can
trust. 

LIZ JACKSON: Major Tara, in the baseball cap, is the
leader of this group. He's still officially in the
Timorese army but deserted to the rebels after April
28th. We asked him why the Prime Minister should stand
down now. Why not wait for elections? 

MAJOR TARA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): There's too much
evidence. We can't wait till the next election,
because some members of Fretilin already have guns and
they are threatening people so that people will vote
for Alkatiri. 

LIZ JACKSON: Later we're taken further into the hills
to meet up with Lieutenant Salsinha - head of the
group of so-called petitioners. He's supposed to have
the evidence - documentary evidence - that the Prime
Minister has given weapons to ministers of the
Fretilin Party. This is a serious allegation - maybe,
if true, enough to force Alkatiri to stand down. 

LT GASTAO SALSINHA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): In the
documents there are listed which district... how many
weapons in every district. Who responsible for these
weapon and who carry these weapon. All in document.
Name included. 

LIZ JACKSON: And these are civilians? 

LT GASTAO SALSINHA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): Civilian and
some of Fretilin militant. 

LIZ JACKSON: But it turns out the documents are not
available. 

LT GASTAO SALSINHA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): At the
moment I don't have, but... 

LIZ JACKSON: It is possible for us to see them later? 

LT GASTAO SALSINHA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): It's still
not possible because these document... they keep not
in this place. Somewhere else. 

LIZ JACKSON: You keep them somewhere else. Is it
possible for you to introduce us to the three
civilians who have made the statements? Is it possible
for us to talk with them? 

LT GASTAO SALSINHA, F-FDTL (TRANSLATION): No. They are
hiding somewhere. 

-end/1 of 2... continues...

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Joyo Indonesia News Service
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